Ep. 7 - A Conversation Matt Newlin: Creating Systems for Success for Rural and First-generation Students
Transcript
Jen: [00:00:00] Welcome, Matt. I am so excited to have you here for the
FirstGenFM podcast. Tell us about yourself and what got you into
working as a consultant and specifically with the rural population.
I’m really excited to learn
Matt: more about that. Of course. Thank you for having me on the
podcast. I’m excited about. What you're doing and to be podcast buddies
with you, but I think focusing on first gen students such a great idea. So
thank you for the opportunity. I've worked in higher education for about
17 years.
A little bit of a renaissance person in that I've seen it from a lot of
different angles. I. I always call myself. I'm a proud first generation
student from a working class low income background. So I went to the
University of Missouri Columbia Mizzou. My parents had no ideas how
to, to guide me, how to prepare me, how to complete financial aid
applications.
It was, it was all just shooting in the dark and trying to figure it through.
So, truly that first gen experience is that students are having today. Very
similar to what I had 20 [00:01:00] years ago. So very proud first gen
student and also was a Pell grant student all four years. I was only able
to attend because I got that Pell grant and it helped make the loan debt I
was taking manageable enough.
And so I got into higher education a little bit because I just really enjoyed
college and I never thought about it as a career until after I got, I
graduated and got away and. Realize that there were people who
worked there as a career and as a job. And so I was like, I love college. I
love doing programming.
I loved, I loved being a part of student activities and all that. So I got into
financial aid, which is oddly enough, one of the easiest ways to get into
the higher ed field. I got into financial aid and just quickly fell in love with
it. Not the financial aid piece necessarily, but in how how big of a
difference you could have through a small thing with a student.
And very quickly, because I had gone through the debt, I, you know,
graduated with almost 30, 000 in loans. I was in repayment. I was going
through things identical to what my students were going through
[00:02:00] because I was only a few years older than them. And so my, I
was able to empathize and start to really.
Have a positive impact on students. And that's what made me fall in love
with higher ed is having an impact on students. So I worked in financial
aid for about 12 years after I worked at a four year public institution that I
moved over to Washington university in St. Louis. I worked with a
graduate students at the school of social work for about seven and a half
years.
And that's where I really got into Really blowing up the, the standard
financial aid system. I was doing more outreach with students. I was
doing more debt management. I was doing more work things on the
recruitment front to prepare students for the financial aid process. I was
creating financial literacy programs.
And then that was the first time I created a first gen student program was
I had all of these graduate students who. Had managed to get, get out of
undergrad and graduated, but now they were graduate school and they
had no idea what to do. And grad school is hyper competitive, especially
in a very elite position.
I got a school like that. And so I create some first gen programming to, to
help our students acclimate and feel like they [00:03:00] were on
somewhat equal footing with their peers. And then that's where I just
kind of fell in love and, and. Pulled away from financial aid and that's
what pulled me into the first gen space.
I left WashU, started working with College Advising Corps, Director of
Rural Initiatives. That's where I really fell in love with the rural space.
And then since then again, I've been fortunate that I've, I've, once I left
College Advising Corps, I've been doing consulting with large schools,
small schools, states here in Missouri, where I live schools across the
country.
And so as a consultant, I've been very, very fortunate to see it from a lot
of different angles as a student, as an employee, as a faculty member,
as a consultant, as an adjunct. And so I've been able to see things from
a lot of different angles and it just, it keeps me motivated every day
because there's so many things we need to fix and address, but it also
keeps me motivated because I'm seeing so many of our peers do cool
things every single day that I really want to highlight and support and
celebrate.
Yeah,
Jen: absolutely. Absolutely. And you're one of those cool people doing
the cool things. So, so tell me, like, when you go to consult with these
colleges, do they, I, [00:04:00] and I assume it's colleges, not
necessarily high school or K through 12 districts.
Matt: Typically it's colleges.
Jen: Yeah. So when they reach, reach out to you, are they looking to
increase outreach and admissions and enrollment of rural students?
Are they looking to support the students? Is it a combination of those
things?
Matt: It can be a combination. And so I don't work just with rural
students. I usually tell people that I have three buckets of expertise and
then a fourth area of passion. So I have three buckets. I really focus on
helping institutions improve and accelerate their support and their
retention of First generation students, rural students and low income
students.
And while obviously there's a lot of overlap among those three
populations, they are three distinct sets of populations. And those are
kind of my areas of expertise. What I go to schools with and say, here's
how I can help your student population by working with your employees,
staff, faculty, your senior student affairs officers, your, your your
academic officials.
[00:05:00] Trying to improve again, the recruitment, retention, graduation
rates of those different populations. And then the fourth area, the kind of
passion area is the debt management, financial literacy, student loan
repayment. Cause that's an area I'm still really, really concerned about.
There's a lot of schools, still a number of schools who aren't really doing
anything in that space.
And so I'm always pushing schools to think about that. So when a
school, when I started to partner with a school, I try to figure out what
their needs are. Sometimes they have it clearly identified. Sometimes
they don't. I worked with a techno state technical college and they
brought me in specifically.
They're like, we need to help our faculty and staff better understands first
gen students. First and low income students lack of social and cultural
capital and how that plays out in a state educational, a state tech
educational institution. And so I worked with their faculty and their staff
to help them understand that while these students are going into, you
know, these trade fields and they're being set up for success in their.
Career specific majors. We can always do more. We [00:06:00] can
always improve the student experience. We can always make it better,
more successful, more equitable. And so I came in and worked with
them over two days over two semesters just to To Bring in some ideas
and some theories and some examples of what other schools are doing.
And it was, I think it was incredibly successful and we got great
responses from it. So sometimes the school knows exactly what they
need. Other times the school will reach out to me and they'll say, for
example, I'm starting to work with a school in Texas now where they've
got a great first gen basically coordinating committee up and running.
But there's not a lot of Productivity happening and there's kind of some
territorial, not fighting, but concerns because people have been doing
this work for a long time. So some of that is I'll hopefully be coming in
and helping, you know, cut through some again, the, the bureaucracy,
the, the kind of ownership NIST that we run into in higher ed and just
help them focus on what can we do to support the 1st gen students?
Because at the end of the day, that's what it's about.
Jen: Right, right. Yeah, breaking down the silos and the, like, these are
[00:07:00] my students sort of territorial versus know they're the entire
university's responsibility and we're all accountable for their success.
When you you know, when you talk to folks and they come to you, do
they often come with that that deficit mindset, like our, our first gen
students are low income students, our rural students are lacking this
versus here's what they bring.
We just need to, to bring that to the fore and really recognize what
they're bringing to the campus. And do you then help with that? This is
the longest question ever. And then I'm
Matt: with you help with that. No, I was totally with you the whole time.
So let me answer it this way. I always start with an asset based
framework.
Everything, all of my work in my presentations, I'm working on something
for this Friday that is asset based and has that positive framework. So
yes, I'm always bringing that in regardless of what the institutions kind of
feel of it is because that's so important. But then to answer the first part
of your question this.
Most of the people that [00:08:00] reach out to me that I'm having
conversations with, they understand the, that we we look at everything
with a deficit. First gen students can't do this. Rural students don't know
how to do this. All these kinds of things. And in a lot of times it's the
other people that are connected to the people who reach out to me.
So their network, their, their working group, their committee, whatever it
is, Who will often default to those mindsets. And again, I don't ever take
it as insensitivity or lack of care, lack of concern for the students. I just
think it up as it's as humans, it's easier for us to put things in, in, in the
And describe it as this is what we're lacking.
This is what that person can't do. This is what we're not able to do as
opposed to this is what that person is really strong at. This is what we
can do as a team. And so I think it's natural to look at things deficit.
That's why I really in a deficit angle. That's why I don't hold against
schools. But yes, I'm always bringing that in and helping them.
Remember, first gen students are far more resilient than your continuing
generation peers. You know, rural students are first. [00:09:00] far more
innovative in order to find things out than a lot of their non rural peers.
Low income students will make it work. Unfortunately, sometimes they
sacrifice their health and their hunger in order to go to class, but low
income students are there for a reason.
They want to get through. And so I hope the schools recognize that yes,
there are, there, there, starting behind the starting line, right? But we
can, we can fix that by making the sometimes small incremental,
sometimes large campus turning over changes. But we have to
recognize the reality of the student situations.
Jen: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting that you know you talk about that
because I remember when I had a faculty member come to me, because
they wanted to be more active with our first gen community and they
said they love first gen students, because, how did she put it she didn't
say she didn't say that they haven't learned how to game the system, but
that their questions.
Are very intellectually honest because they're really [00:10:00] learning
how to ask questions how to be in college, how to, you know, go through
the coursework. And she said, they just bring like such uniqueness to
the classroom that I just don't see very much, you know, where she
where she was working and I thought.
You know, I never thought of it that way that they see things with
different eyes and then they open up, they open that vision up to us so
that we can then see things differently and then approach things
differently. That's why, again, encouraging first gen students to go to
college and be that person.
Matt: That's beautiful, but I think, I think that person is right. First gen
students don't exploit the system because they don't even know the
system. They don't, they wouldn't know how to exploit it. You know, it's
like if you told me, you know, Hey, go exploit the Pentagon's defense
systems. I wouldn't even know how to begin that, let alone how to be
successful in getting, you know, and I know what you, what she's saying
is, you know, continuing to generate students, you know, if they have
parents, you know, how to help them pressure their faculty or their TAs,
or how to really push to get [00:11:00] that grade or how to.
You know, push for an extension just because it, you know, first students
don't know how to, they don't even know that's an option. They're just
trying to get through of how to figure out how to submit the assignments
and how to learn how to balance all of these things. So I love the, it's
almost like a poly and a naivete way to look at it, but it's, it's true.
They are truly these babes in the woods because they have it. Learn the
bad habits. But what you're saying is true. And it's something that I've
started bringing up, especially in workshops. I, I came up, I, I thought
about this a few months ago, and I've started incorporating where I talk
about first gen students, their strengths.
I always started with asset base and I say. First gen students are
resilient. I say they're, they innovate they're resourceful. And I've started
saying first gen students are a new perspective on a 400 year old
system. And it's funny because as I've started putting that in, that's really
hit people. I can see it hit them when it pops up on the screen of, yeah,
we've been doing it basically the same for 400 years in this country.
And then going back to Europe, if you really want to nerd out about the
[00:12:00] history of the German institutions, all this stuff. We're basically
doing it the same. And then we have first gen students who can come on
campus and be like, this doesn't make sense. Why would we do it this
way? Why do we call that the birth star?
Why can't we just call that the payment office? Right. There's no re and
like, honestly, there's no reason I would love to ask a college president.
Why can't we just change the name to payment office? Well, birth stars,
how it's always been. So I always like to remind people, like if you want
a fresh take, or you want people who can come in and poke holes in the
system and kind of show you where the flaws are.
Ask a first gen student because they will have a very very distinct
perspective. Yeah, yeah,
Jen: I love that and I think I just think that is so so so true. So when
you're working with these colleges, what are what are you mentioned
one of the aha moments when you talk about, you know, they have a
new perspective on a 400 year old system.
What are some aha moments when you're speaking with, you know,
other colleges that You know, I, as a listener [00:13:00] and, and talking
to you can then maybe take and use it my institution.
Matt: I'm always excited when, when things bubble up from the
audience or for the group I'm working with. And that's something I really
push on is I encourage, you know, let's say the point person for, for lack
of a better term. I'm always encouraging whoever my point person
person I'm talking to the most on the project or, or the, the assignment.
You really need to cultivate your team, especially your younger
professionals, your people who are fresh out of grad school, people who
have only been in the field, you know, five years or less, the ones who
are anxious to, to really make their name, build up their resume who are
really, you know, those, those ambitious ones who are really trying to
start off their careers because they will have ideas that you've never
thought of before because they just learned about it in class or because.
They're younger, they know a newer technology or their experience was
different and they want to bring that to this experience. And so [00:14:00]
I, I get excited when I'm working with whether it's, you know, in a large
presentation or smaller workshop when things bubble up from within the
group from within the institution that I can then build on and say, and
identify and say, yes, that's a great idea.
And so, for example, I was at a community college in. Georgia earlier
this year and it was, it was a presentation, you know, so it's sort of a
keynote thing. So not a lot of time for, for working, but in the Q and a, we
were talking about, okay, well, now what, now, you know, we know what
can you do to improve especially around career services for 1st gen
students and we had people who weren't in the career service office who
are some of the academic here saying, well My students were working
in, in the automotive tech side of things.
They need to know about this in order to get jobs. You know, they've
never filled out a full job application. It would be great if we did some
mock job applications or the students in the nursing allied health, you
know, they're really focused on the lab things. It would be great if we got
them more writing classes, more writing prep, so they could be more
impressive on that side.
[00:15:00] And all of these ideas were bubbling up really from these
different departments and these younger. Professionals really in the
room who had all of these ideas, and then I could come in and say, yes,
that's great. Or yes, that's a good idea. And as the quote unquote expert,
I can then push that off and point to the president or point to whoever is
in there and say, Hey, you should listen to that person or Hey, you
should really take that under advisement.
Because again, I think it has that weight of that outside person saying it's
a good idea. And again, it's I love spotlighting those younger people,
those people who are willing to talk. Voice their opinions or speak up
and say, Hey, I've got an idea because in higher ed, we don't always
listen to the people without the power.
If you don't have a director title or a senior student affairs officer, AVP,
like if you don't have one of those really important titles, a lot of times we
don't listen to you. And I think that needs to be flipped because you
know, The coordinators, the assistant directors, the managers, they're
talking to students every day, all day.
Whereas our chancellors are vice presidents. They're talking to students.
Maybe a couple of times a week. I want to pay attention to the people
[00:16:00] who are talking to students every day. Yeah.
Jen: Yeah. And, and well, and just paying attention to the students in
general, because it's their lived experience. And so they can tell you
where the gaps, the holes, the, the other things are, and then they're
sharing that.
you know, whether that's in frustration or joy, you know, with, with the,
the staff who are right there with them acting as their guides. And yeah,
so those, I love that idea of getting that group of young professionals.
They also haven't been,
you know, sometimes I think the joy gets trained out of us. Unless we
really hold on to that or that that idealism with I'm here, I'm going to
change the world. I'm going to have a real impact on these students, and
they're living it they're believing it and if they can help. I'm going to say
the oldie I'll say I'm an oldie in the in the profession for 35 years, but they
bring that joy back to us.
And [00:17:00] again, open up, you know, our eyes to the things that we
may have missed, or we may be so just in the, in the weeds of the
administration stuff that they bring that, remember we're student
centered, take a look at these things, and it never hurts to have that
reminder.
Matt: Yeah, I absolutely agree. And just getting more voices, more
voices in the room and not the voices you always hear.
You know, we talk about that a lot with especially inclusivity and making
sure the voices, the people that you're talking about are making policies
for it, that those voices are in the room you know, race, ethnicity, gender,
all of that. I think it's also true in terms of experience and it's not an age.
It truly is an experience. It's people who have been in the profession. I
mean, it could be someone who's 45 years old. Who just started working
in the profession, they're going to have a very unique take on higher ed,
especially if they've worked in the for profit sector before, which I can't
imagine making that transition, but that's for another podcast.
But like, it's it's about freshness to the experience of just trying to.
[00:18:00] breathe some new life. Because I think you, me, anyone
who's worked on a college campus for more than a couple of years,
realize status quo is the preference. And it's not the, that's not just the
preference, it's sort of the marching orders on a lot of campuses,
whether explicitly or implicitly.
And I've worked in places where there's been a very clear message of
don't rock the boat. We're not We're not making massive changes. And
all that does is result in tiny little band aids being applied and like, okay,
great. Well now we have a first gen student group and we have an
LGBTQ plus resource center.
Cool. Wouldn't it be better if we didn't need those? Like wouldn't it be
great if in 10 years, my job didn't need to exist. Your job didn't need to
exist. And students could just go to college. But colleges don't want to do
that. And so I think. That's the other reason being in the consultant role
has been so interesting.
Cause again, I, that outside perspective, I think it adds a little bit more of
that weight. You can push a little bit more. I [00:19:00] can be a little bit
more confrontational, isn't the right word, but I can push back more on,
on my partners, on my clients. Like, Hey, you guys aren't thinking about
this or you're not seeing this.
Because again, I've been in the roles of the people who don't have the
voice. So I can be that voice a little bit more now of like really pushing
back and saying, you need to focus on changes. You need to focus on
structural. Systemic adjustments, not just, okay, we have a new office or
we hired a diversity coordinator or whatever it might
Jen: be.
Yeah, that idea that change is never done. We should keep changing
like I'm a big Disney fan. And, you know, they say like at the parks and
everything that the park isn't done, it's always changing it's always
building new things are being created. And, and, you know, we need to
adapt to that too so it's not only the new people coming in.
It's also people who are new maybe to our organization. Coming from
another organization who may bring it, bring in just some fantastic ideas.
So I, you know, if you're a good listener [00:20:00] and you ask the right
questions, which is probably a lot of what you do as a consultant, you're
going to get the answers from the people who are actually there and
then add your expertise and, you know, guidance and wisdom on top of
that.
Yeah,
Matt: a lot of it is it's just knowing how to ask questions and knowing the
questions behind the questions or or what else needs to be asked or
sometimes just letting people talk, you know, and and letting them kind
of discover what some of their challenges are. And so a lot of schools,
they not a lot.
But again, it's a mixture of some schools. They kind of know what their
problem is. Other schools, you They know they have a problem. They
just haven't identified it yet. And other schools, they're like, we just want
you to come in and improve. Like we just, any additional event, even if
it's a one hour presentation or half day works out, we just want our
people to get better.
And I love that too. They're like, there's just continuous improvement and
professional development and higher ed is so undervalued and
underfunded. We expect our, our people, our employees on [00:21:00]
staff side, at least to go to a conference once a year. To learn everything
they need and to come back and do their jobs.
And, and that's it. And it's absurd. And it's, it's, it's, it's counter intuitive to
what, you know, we should be doing as, you know, again, academics as
educators, you know? And so so even the schools are saying, Hey,
we're just talking, we're all about continuous improvement for our staff
and our faculty. I'm, I'm on board with that too.
As long as you're trying to make those
Jen: changes. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that. So now I'm going to
go back to something you talked about a little bit ago, which is when you
were talking about student employability and student employment and
careers and that. You know, everybody, every student who goes to
college, whether it's for a certificate or a two year degree or a four year
degree, they're all looking for a career that they're going to go in
afterwards.
And so I know we had talked about, you know, first gen rural and low
income students and student employability [00:22:00] and and getting
that up and running so I'm wondering, you know, what are your ideas
around that. That maybe you, you share or that you've thought about
both for colleges and is there anything that you think that the folks in
high school who are listening could do to maybe, you know, help
promote that and get students thinking about that college isn't the end
point, you know, or a certificate isn't the end point, it's the springboard to
where you're going to, where you're going to go next.
Matt: Yeah, that, and that's a great question. And it's complicated
because yeah, you are right. There are so many people involved, right?
It's not just the, the colleges, it's the high schools, it's the students
themselves, it's our career services, friends, all of that. And it's, and it's
messy and it's tough. And, and this partially come from not only my, my
work as a consultant and work in higher ed, but I worked for two and a
half years at Mizzou as a career specialist in the MU career center.
So as a, as a student, as an undergrad, I was helping other undergrads
and some graduate students help. Stumble through and figure out their
careers too. So I have some of that, that practical experience as well.
[00:23:00] So I'll say this. I think our, our, our, the way we approach
career services and student employment is too bifurcated from the
academic experience of college.
It's sort of like you go to college to learn and then. In junior year or senior
year, you start doing your career search and you start doing your job
search and those are two different off. You know, those are two different
sides. You've got academics and then you've got usually career
services, student affairs or something like that.
And those two sides rarely overlap. I think in an ideal world, we would
have career services directly embedded into all of the curricula across
the campus, whether it's an English degree, a STEM degree, a
philosophy degree, a business degree, everyone is getting employment,
career services, career prep.
Incorporated into the syllabus into the exams into [00:24:00] the projects
so that students aren't left to flounder on their own or outside of the
experience in the classroom. Because right now, students are focused.
It's tricky, right? You're like, well, I'm here to go to college. So I've got to
focus on the academics.
But I'm going to college to get a job. So I also need to focus on that and
put a lot of time into finding, building my network, finding internship,
making, you know, making connections and we haven't figured out how
to blend those two together yet. So in my perfect world, it would be you
start a, let's say a pathway into a our sciences field.
It might be public relations. It might be math education, but everything is
built with. Your future career in mind or a future career in mind. And
obviously we can't anticipate what every, every career that's going to be,
but at least it's building in some professional development, resume
writing. How to, how to network within your industry, networking in the
music industry is going to be very different than networking in the
academic, you know, anthropology field.
And so just, just. Bringing [00:25:00] these things together, I think, would
help, you know, community colleges are getting great at building
pathways for students on the academic side, I think four year colleges
would do well to learn from the two year colleges and add in that career
services because right now they're separate and students see them as
separate and as something that shouldn't, shouldn't be bridged, but
really needs to be, in my opinion, and then going back to your question
about high school, yeah, for any high school students or families who
are listening, talk to the career services office, Before your student even
enrolls, you know, a lot of times when you're looking at schools, you're
only talking to admissions and recruitment people.
Sometimes you'll get to a financial aid person. But what people don't
understand is as a non student, as just a prospective student, you have
every right to contact anyone and everyone at that institution, reach out
to the career services director and say, Hey, we're coming for a campus
visit. We'd love to meet with you or one of your staff members, reach out
to the department chair of your program and say, Hey, we're coming to
campus.
We'd love to meet with you or another faculty member. So [00:26:00] I
would encourage students, you know, you don't have to be a fully
enrolled student, visit multiple campuses, talk to multiple campuses, but
go to the career services office and see how they support their students.
So that, you know, from the very, very beginning.
Yeah.
Jen: Right. And just talking to students. You know, as first year students
and trying to say, like, go see career design. Many times they're like,
why? But I say like go talk to them about what they do. I mean, and
obviously, you know, I'm lucky that I have a summer immersion program,
so we can bring career design to the students like in one of our college
seminar classes.
So they can meet the folks that are going to be able to help them and
and because it's not just about that first job experience when you
graduate it's everything in between even what you do on campus your
extracurriculars and all that.
Matt: Exactly. And we need, I'm sorry to interrupt, but, but I think that's
exactly right.
And we need career services professionals. Who know how to turn
student involvement, [00:27:00] volunteer activities taking care of, of
younger children or sick relatives, how to turn all of those things into
bullet points for a resume, or how to turn those things into a cover letter,
or how to turn those things into a point that you could bring up in a job
interview.
And right now, I don't get the sense that we have that. We know how to
talk about an internship and how that translates to an office job, but
What about taking care of your baby brother and sister while going to
college? Because your mom is sick and that's why you're living at home.
That makes for a heck of a hardworking employee in my book when that
student graduates.
We got to make sure that student can tell that story so that they have,
again, equal footing when they graduate to a student who might have an
internship has a really great looking suit was prepped by, you know,
mom or dad, like, again, it's, it's, it's creating that equity across
populations. Yeah,
Jen: yeah, I mean, I'm really lucky in that I.
I work at Northeastern where we have a co op program. So all of the
students get that work experience before they graduate. Yeah.
[00:28:00] And you know, they have co op advisors. They have a co op
class that, you know, goes over resume writing and really making a solid
resume and, you know, mock interviews. So they have that experience,
you know, as sophomores and juniors.
Depending on how many co ops they choose to do, but it always seems
to me that there are ways to incorporate that into the college experience
that don't necessarily have to be as, you know, robust as 100 year old co
op program. Absolutely.
Matt: Yeah, you know, and just making small thing, you know, making.
One practical assignment every semester where your students write a
paper, a research paper on their chosen career field.
And you say, okay, what have you learned this semester that you can
apply to your career field? I mean, it's it's these small incremental
changes that can really add up to something different, you know, even if
it's just you. And I, you know, I was talking about faculty a lot because
the academic piece is obviously the focus of college and it's the most
disconnected, I think, from the career piece, but even just faculty talking
[00:29:00] about their own experiences, you know, like how they got to
where they are, you know, what they did before they became a
professor or instructor, you know, what their experience, I mean, just.
Just giving more of that practical real world experience. Like when I
graduated college, I had no idea what it was going to be like to sit in an
office for eight hours a day because my, you know, that weren't that,
excuse me, wasn't the kind of job my parents had. And it was shocking.
It was. overwhelmingly boring.
And I had no idea that it was going to be like, Oh, this is what I'm going
to do for the next 40 years. Okay, great. Like nothing prepares you for
that, but you, you need to have a kind of that preparation of what it's like
to work in that office setting if you've never done it before. Yeah.
Jen: Yeah, absolutely.
And for first gen students who don't have that parental network, or
maybe even the community network to turn to, to ask questions about
what's that. That's like the faculty can provide a glimpse of that into why
they do what they do, not just like what they do, but why and what their
path was. And I think you know [00:30:00] Rebecca talked about that in
episode two about her asking her professor and it turns out like he's
doing, he's doing professor.
He loves what he does, but he also wants to serve. So it was like the
perfect job for him. But talking to people about their whys and I think if
we can encourage our students. To be better networkers or to realize
that networking isn't a, a bad thing. It's, it's not a salesy thing. It's not,
they're like, Hey, hire me.
This is why, you know, it's, it's tell me more about who you are. How did
you get here? Why do you like what you do? What are some of the
things you don't like about what you do? And then they can kind of
internalize that and think like, I like this. I don't like this. Hmm. What path
should I go into?
Because. Everybody likes to talk about what they do. Right. So, so
talking to students about just reaching out to other people informationally
in careers that you're interested in is, is a great way [00:31:00] to get that
started for the students because folks love talking to high school
students about careers and what they do.
Matt: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And then the networking piece is
probably top three most critical things for first gen students is is
understanding and knowing how to build your network because in our
world, your social capital is everything. I mean, it truly is. It's I mean,
that's why we say, you know, it's it's not what, you know, it's who, you
know, I mean, That's social capital, but you're, you're exactly right.
And that's what we need to help students build from day one of getting
on the campus and not just in related, related to employment and your
eventual career, but just how to build your network on campus, how to
get to know your faculty members, how to get to know your TAs, people
in your residence halls, your, your RAs, your academic advice.
Everyone is in your network, but I 100% with what you agree about it
feeling kind of salesy because I have the same aversion to it when I
graduate because I still have a very strong aversion to sales and kind of
that [00:32:00] corporate y, business y gloss of everything is slick and
everything is transactional, so I get that, but for any first gen students
who are listening Please let me tell you, networking is not that
networking and don't, you don't even have to use that, that name.
If you don't want to, it's building your network. It's building your
connections. But I tell first gen students, the thing that I think really
resonates with them is the reciprocity. Networking is not just, Hey,
Jennifer, you know, this person, can you help me get a job with them?
Which, Hey, I mean, I'll be honest, Jen, that's kind of how you and I
connected, right?
Was you connected with me? And I said, Hey, I actually applied for a job
teaching at Northeastern. I'd love for you to help me like. I'm going to be
honest with that because that is the world, everyone. That's the only
reason I'm here right now is, is that piece and how great has it worked
out? Because now I've got a new friend, a new person to nerd out with
higher about higher ed with like, but my point is networking is reciprocity
and it really hit home earlier in my career.
I had a friend who he got the most joy out of connecting people. Like he
just. Got [00:33:00] so excited and he did it one time for me. He
connected me with someone else and I don't even remember what it
was related to, and it was great. And I connect with that person and it
was successful. And his name, my friend's name was Nate.
And I'm like, man, that was really cool. I want to start doing that for
people. And then I started connecting people, just doing email
introductions or connecting on social media, man, those things have
been so successful. And I have friends. I have people now who are
friends outside of me that I know individually.
And it's like people, it's so amazing. So it's not just taking it's giving, and
that's the biggest piece. So I tell first gen students, whether it's in person
or if it's virtual in LinkedIn or social media, never forget the reciprocity
because not only does that build others up and it makes everyone
better, but it also.
Well, let's be honest. It looks good for you. It shows that you're a team
player. It shows you care about other people. And that just improves
your, your kind of social standing anyway, because it shows you're a
good person. But [00:34:00] then also to your point around the building,
your network is don't be afraid to reach out to people, especially faculty,
especially people who have letters behind their names, ignore it.
Don't worry about it. I have been shocked in my career, how many
people and how often people are willing to just do quick. 30 minute
conversations with me or do coffee, you know, meetups people. And
again, I'm saying this to students and parents of students as well. People
will shock you at how willing they are to give up their time, to talk about
things that are important.
Email people, call people, set up appointments when you were on
campus. You will be very surprised at how willing people are to give you
their time and to be honest and upfront. And then boom, you've had a
meeting and look at that one more person in your network that you can
go back to, or maybe you could help in the future.
And so, yeah, I, I can't talk enough about that piece because
unfortunately that's how our world works. I tell people social capital, you
know, capital means we talk about capital. We're talking about cash,
right? Like how do we buy goods and services with our capital? That's
what social [00:35:00] capital is. It's buying.
Jobs influence. It's having that effect down the road. But instead of it
buying it with cash, you're buying it with your influence, your reciprocity,
your involvement, also your knowledge. All of these things come into
play because that's how our world works. And college is when you can
really start to build all of that up.
Yeah. And I think,
Jen: I mean, I feel called upon as an educator and in the role I have to
set up some systems to help facilitate that. So, you know, instead of
saying students individually go to career design, it can be go to this
person in career design who understands the first gen experience, or I
can say I'm bringing career design to you we're having a mandatory
meeting will feed you.
But, like, we're going to have career design there to talk about what is
networking How does it work at Northeastern, who, how do you reach
out to alumni, you know, who do we know, and then how do you how do
you do that and so. I mean, I even recall one of when I was at the
University of Washington several years ago I [00:36:00] mandated that
they go talk to faculty members, and I gave them like a list of questions.
And I said, pick three of these and go and talk to a faculty member
because Like, I remember it was scary talking to faculty members. Like, I
had to go meet with my advisor, who's a faculty person. I'm like, Oh, you
know, they, they're so smart. And like, they have all this experience.
Like, what am I going to talk with them about?
And then realizing that, you know, we, we ended up talking instead of
about political science and what classes or politics, we ended up talking
about like weightlifting and bench pressing, you know, and, and, and so
you. So I gave students some questions and so many of them came
back and they're like, that was so great.
Like I was so nervous, but they're like, they're real people. They're
humans. Yeah. And so who would have guessed? Yeah. Yeah. So I
think if, if we can do that and I hate to say, make them do that, but
encourage them to do that and give them the tools to do that, then I think
we're better
Matt: off. Yeah, I mean, that's a brilliant program.
I love that you implemented that and [00:37:00] I think it is a little bit of
for now make them make it mandatory because there is that that
distance. There is that kind of scary. It's not the fact that you aren't
approachable individually. It's that broadly we think of faculty as not
approachable culturally. And so I understand any student and that was
the same for me.
I mean, I remember junior year. I had a English teacher, an English
professor who was a Zen Buddhist master. Yeah. I had so many
questions for him after class. He dropped that nugget in class and then I
walked with him for like 20 minutes to his next class because I was like, I
have so many questions about your history in your world.
And it was mind blowing. And that so, yes, get to know them. But then
another. Example is I worked. So again, work study while I was an
undergraduate financial aid, you know, it was great to have an on
campus job and I worked in the communication department. I was a
communication major. So I worked in there, you know, just doing office
tasks, paperwork, that kind of stuff, but all of the faculty were there.
So the people I had in class, I got [00:38:00] to know them on a first
name basis. Like some of them were like, Okay. In the office, call me
Mark. Like, I don't care. Like, I was like, Oh my God, you're a human.
And like, I got to know, like this factor member, he's got a wife and kid at
home. So he leaves at four o'clock every day and he's gone.
But then this other factor member, he teaches evening classes and he's
a night owl. So he's here late. And like, you just get to learn and know
who your members are. You get to see them as people. They get to see
you as a fully. Fully built out human which can only be helpful down the
road. And it's like, yes, just know your factor members, get to know
them, make sure they know you cause it will have an impact later on.
And again, it's, it's just about growing your network and just getting to
know the people that you're going to spend quite a bit of time with.
Jen: Right. Yeah, absolutely. So as we sort of wrap up, I know that you
had something that you wanted to share that you've done around
student employability, because that that's, you're like, we have to talk
about this.
Do you want to talk more about that and how people [00:39:00] can find
that and then how can they find you?
Matt: Absolutely. So people can reach out to me at just Matt Newland,
consulting. com. Newland, N E W L I N, but just Matt Newland,
consulting. com or Matt at Matt Newland, consulting. com to reach out to
me. One of the projects I did want to talk about was this really great
project I did with the National Student Employment Association.
I did about a year long partnership with them on. First gen students and
student employment. So yes, I did want to talk about that, but I actually
looked last week and they've taken the page down that had all of the
resources available. They redesigned their website. And so the free
resource that I wanted to bring up, unfortunately are not available, but
anyone is able to reach out to me or go on my website and I can share
they're available on there, or they can reach out to me individually.
I will share them with everyone. They're they're free to anyone to use.
But yeah, after we talked about that, I went for another project and I'm
like, Oh, they took that page down. I gotta, I gotta fix some hyperlinks
I've set up somewhere. So I apologize to your listener. I apologize,
Jennifer, but I won't have those, [00:40:00] but the student employment
piece that we've talked about for 1st gen students.
What I'll say is, like I said before, incorporate into the curriculum, getting
faculty on board, helping students see. That it's something you need to
talk about from day one, not just starting in junior or senior year. And,
and a lot of the work was really focused on, again, building that student
social capital.
Looking, and I would say for any any of our colleagues, any
professionals, student affairs or faculty professionals who are on here,
look at what's coming out of NC National Student Employment
Association NACE, the National Association of Colleges and Employers.
They're always putting out great research and ideas and fact sheets and
white papers around student employment.
And NACE is getting really good at first gen students as well. So just be
paying attention to them, what they're talking about, tools, resources to
just improve the student experience because there’s, there’s so many
things that are out there. Great.
Jen: I will link to those in the show notes as well as to your website.
Thank you so much. This has been a great conversation. I have learned
a lot. I’ve been taking copious notes [00:41:00] so that I can then go
ahead and do some of these things. So again, if you want to reach out to
Matt, you can email him at Matt at Matt Newland, N E W L I N
consulting. com. And as always, if you want to find me, Jen, I am at Jen.
That’s J E N at first gen G E N. FM. com or my website is first gen FM.
com. And I would love to have you sign up. And so I can send you my
newsletter or if you’d like, give me a review, give me a rating five stars,
hopefully, because Matt and I are awesome. So that other people can
find us on their podcast list.
So thank you so much for joining us today. And thank you, Matt. It was a pleasure.
Matt: Thank you. It was great being here. I appreciate it.
